Comments on The Platoon Advantage: Jack Morris is going to be a Hall of Famer, and th...

Hey Bill, Love this piece. I absolutely agree, an...

2012-01-18T08:44:17.015-06:00

Hey Bill,
Love this piece. I absolutely agree, and have felt for a while, that we should be spending our time arguing for the induction of deserving players rather than arguing that some guys don't belong. I think it's because it's kind of a shame to me that we keep ragging on the career of who was, after all, a very very good (and way cool) pitcher, even if we're right. I just feel bad about it.
BUT when/if he is inducted, I hope to God they don't put that "pitched to the score" crap on his plaque. THAT would piss me off.

Really? I think it's having a huge impact, ove...

2012-01-17T17:56:42.382-06:00

Really? I think it's having a huge impact, overall. So I guess I'd categorically disagree with all of that.

But, I'm saying two things here: (1) yes, I'm sick of hearing the same stats over and over about Morris, but also, (2) the BBWAA and other influential voices who are at all likely to hear what we have to say have already heard it all re: Morris, and have largely decided to tune us out, so in this one isolated instance, we really are just preaching to the choir. Which does make the Morris issue considerably less "important" than the others.

And, no, to your larger point from your first comment, I guess do think who gets in is a much less important question than who stays out. Morris or no, it's still an extremely exclusive institution, with a loose but identifiable set of standards that have more or less stayed in place since about 1947. The mistakes who slip through the gates don't shift the standard. Jim Rice isn't going to open the door for Roy White or Fred Lynn or Ken Singleton, Freddy Lindstrom certainly didn't open the door any wider for third basemen, Morris getting in won't suddenly usher in Tanana and Martinez and Stieb, etc., etc. We know this by now.

So I'm not nearly as worried about their letting a few stray undeserving candidates slip in as I am about keeping the clearly deserving ones like Raines and Bagwell out.

Fair enough, Bill. I know you're not arguing ...

2012-01-17T17:06:36.096-06:00

Fair enough, Bill. I know you're not arguing for Morris. All I'd say about that is that very little of what the saber-blogger community has to say will change anything in the HOF debate, Morris or not. Honestly, Morris is sort of the ultimate proof of how little impact the saber-bloggers have on the HOF process. So I don't think any of the various HOF debates are more or less "important" in the sense of actually impacting who gets in or not: the only thing that will change that is death and other forms of natural attrition in the old guard of the BBWAA. If what you're saying is just that you're tired of the Morris thing, that makes a lot more sense to me.

Brandon, I think that's the difference betwe...

2012-01-17T16:20:50.187-06:00

Brandon,

I think that's the difference between TCM's point in the post linked above and my point here. I'm not at all saying Morris is "a Hall of Famer" in that kind of theoretical sense. It's entirely a pragmatic argument: he's going in, his going in won't change anything, and it's just not worth continuing to harp on.

As I said above, if you've got something new to say about Morris, and it advances "the larger HOF debate," that's great, go on ahead. But the "Morris isn't even as good as Non-Hall Candidate X because of the following stats" stuff has really outlived its usefulness.

Bill, I'm not seeing it. Your major argument ...

2012-01-17T15:27:32.311-06:00

Bill, I'm not seeing it. Your major argument seems to be that it's more reasonable to worry about wrongful exclusions than wrongful inclusions. To me, they're the exact same thing.

To say that a player is a Hall of Fame-caliber player is to accept two premises:

1) The Hall of Fame standard is __________.

2) Player meets or exceeds that standard.

With some players, the first part of the argument is unnecessary: if there's going to be a baseball Hall of Fame, Babe Ruth had darn well better be in it, even if you're a micro-Hall guy. But outside of those inner-circle guys, there's a need to articulate a standard. The way that standard is articulated is just as much (if not more) about the exclusions as the inclusions. We say that being a little better than average for a long time is not good enough by rejecting guys like Jack Morris.

I agree that in the cosmic sense we'd better learn to live with Jack Morris in the Hall of Fame, but his case is just as important to the larger HOF debate than any other.

Bill-- Great post. I'm more of a big hall guy...

2012-01-17T14:50:46.735-06:00

Bill--

Great post. I'm more of a big hall guy from a historical perspective. Like many people in the Hall, they may or may not be the best, but by being there it sheds light on the era in which they played. Their inclusion makes me want to learn more about when they played, why they were considered so good, especially after their career. I wouldn't vote for Morris, but I wouldn't pass up a chance to go the Hall if he is there.

Thanks for the comments, everyone. You're righ...

2012-01-17T14:44:42.936-06:00

Thanks for the comments, everyone. You're right, Jason. There are probably voters out there who have no idea any of this is going on, and that group is probably a lot bigger than I'd like to think. But, yeah, as TCM said, it's not as though we're suddenly going to get through to them this year when we haven't been able to for the last ten or thirteen,so it's the same basic effect.

True Jason, but if those voters haven't heard ...

2012-01-17T14:38:07.131-06:00

True Jason, but if those voters haven't heard the argument by now, what are the chances they both read and are persuaded by them by next year?

Bill, great post. I decided when I saw Morris'...

2012-01-17T14:36:36.505-06:00

Bill, great post.

I decided when I saw Morris' jump not to focus the next year on keeping Morris out, but rather to help deserving players get in.

I was a big Jack Morris fan. I don't think he deserves the Hall of Fame, but I'm not too worried if he gets in. He's Jim Rice. He's Catfish Hunter. Those guys got in.

To me, the biggest problem is still the deserving players being kept out.

I agree with 99% of this, but if you've learne...

2012-01-17T14:29:08.094-06:00

I agree with 99% of this, but if you've learned anything about me in the last few months, you've surely learned that I'm a quibbler.

I wonder, in your second paragraph, whether the old-ass BBWAA voters, esp. the ones who don't cover baseball anymore, actually have heard the arguments. There is some percentage of them who I think call their grandkids when their AOL won't connect, and given that a lot of the "Morris wasn't that great" stuff happens on the internet, that would be important.

This is all speculation, though, and in any case doesn't undermine the larger point, because even if some large set of voters has not yet heard the arguments, saying them again isn't going to change that. They'll still be wondering why their modem makes those weird noises while we're happily/angrily typing away our newest "Jack Morris is just like Bob Welch" (or whatever) post. (I like Bob Welch.)

Great post, Bill. Regarding the last paragraph, <...

2012-01-17T14:25:58.143-06:00

Great post, Bill.

Regarding the last paragraph, I absolutely agree.

Bill - You are truly one of the most reasonable, ...

2012-01-17T14:10:52.115-06:00

Bill -

You are truly one of the most reasonable, coherent, and pleasant baseball writers to read on the entire planet. Perfectly put.